>> Bonnie: WHAT ARE YOUR HOPES FOR THE POLITICS OF PREGNANCY IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION?

>> WE BUILD ROADS SO PEOPLE COULD DRIVE TO WORK.

WHY DON'T WE HAVE FREE CHILDCARE SO PEOPLE CAN ACTUALLY GO TO WORK?

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK, WE TALK ABOUT POLITICS AND PREGNANCY WITH AUTHOR LIZ LYZ LENTZ.

SHE HAS WRITTEN TWO BOOKS, THE NEW ONE OUT IS ABOUT PREGNANCY CALLED THE LABOR.

WE WILL GET TO THAT IN A BIT.

THE FIRST ONE IS CALLED GOTLAND, AND SHE WROTE IT FROM WHERE SHE LIVES IN THE MIDWEST IN 2016 AFTER THE BREAKUP OF HER MARRIAGE WHICH HAD A LOT TO DO WITH THE ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP.

LYZ, WELCOME!

PLEASE TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> Lyz: YES.

I LIVE IN IOWA, AND I GREW UP VERY CONSERVATIVE EVANGELICAL, BUT LEFT THE FAITH IN COLLEGE, LIKE SO MANY PEOPLE DO.

AND -- BUT I GOT MARRIED VERY YOUNG AND WAS IN A MIXED POLITICAL MARRIAGE, AND I THINK THERE IS A FEW PEOPLE IN THOSE.

YOU KNOW, YOU'RE ALWAYS KIND OF NAVIGATING THE TRICKY BOUNDARY.

AND I THOUGHT WE WERE MAKING IT WORK UNTIL 2016.

OBVIOUSLY, THERE WERE OTHER THINGS GOING ON TOO, BUT 2016, LIKE IT DID FOR MY MARRIAGE AND FOR THE REST OF THE COUNTRY, REALLY EXPOSED SOME RAW WOUNDS, SOME BIG UNBRIDGEABLE DIVIDES.

AND THAT PUSHED ME OUT OF THE MARRIAGE.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE JUST SOME THINGS WE CANNOT RESOLVE.

THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT YOU CANNOT COMPROMISE ON.

AND THAT KIND OF KICKED OFF THIS JOURNEY OF EXPLORING HOW FAITH IS CHANGING AMERICAN CULTURE AND HOW AMERICAN CULTURE CHANGE HIS FACE AND HOW IT IMPACTS WHO WE ARE POLITICALLY AS A NATION.

AND SO, THAT'S WHAT THE BOOK IS ABOUT.

SO IT'S PERSONAL AND POLITICAL, AND I DROVE ALL AROUND THE MIDWEST, WENT TO LITTLE CHURCHES AND BIG CHURCHES AND WROTE ABOUT IT.

>> Bonnie: TELL ME, BECAUSE RELIGION -- I SEE IT AS EXTREMELY DIVISIVE ISSUE IN AMERICAN POLITICS, IT MAY BE UNITING PERSONALLY FOR PEOPLE.

FAITH OF COURSE IS VERY IMPORTANT.

BUT IT DIVIDES PEOPLE JUST ABOUT ALONG PARTISAN LINES, ALTHOUGH JOE BIDEN IS A LITTLE MORE OUT ABOUT HIS BELIEF IN GOD AND HIS CHRISTIAN FAITH THAN MOST OF HIS DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL PEOPLE WHO PRECEDED HIM IN THAT OFFICE OR RECENTLY PRECEDED HIM IN THAT OFFICE.

SO TELL ME ABOUT HOW 2016 WAS FORMED IN PART BY EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN AMERICA.

>> Lyz: WELL, I WENT TO PUSH BACK ON THAT ASSUMPTION A LITTLE BIT.

THE REALITY IS THAT IN AMERICA, THE MOST RECENT PEW POLL SHOWED 65 PERCENT OF AMERICANS BELIEVE IN A GOD.

OVER 90 PERCENT OF OUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES PROFESSED TO BE PRACTICING CHRISTIANS.

AND, YOU KNOW, IF YOU REMEMBER BARACK OBAMA FAMOUSLY SANG AMAZING GRACE AND GAVE SPEECHES THAT GAVE REFERENCE TO HIS FACE OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, BUT WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO, AND I BELIEVE HILLARY CLINTON AS A CANDIDATE WAS VERY RELIGIOUS AS WELL, BUT WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO IS WHO IS ALLOWED TO BE SEEN AS A GOOD CHRISTIAN AND WHO ISN'T.

AND IN AMERICAN POLITICS, THE CONSERVATIVE EVANGELICAL MOVEMENT HAS KIND OF CO-OPTED WHAT LOOKS LIKE A GOOD CHRISTIAN.

SO THAT IS WHY WE KIND OF HAVE THIS FALSE NARRATIVES IN OUR MINDS THAT, OH, DEMOCRATS ARE NOT CHRISTIAN AND THE REPUBLICANS ARE.

YES, STATISTICALLY, REPUBLICANS TEND TO BE MORE PROFESSING PEOPLE OF FAITH.

BUT ONCE AGAIN, 65 PERCENT OF AMERICANS BELIEVE IN A GOD AND A LOT OF THOSE VOTE DEMOCRAT.

SO -- >> Bonnie: THEY DO, BUT THE FACT IS THAT THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH DAYS FOR DECADES NOW HAVE BEEN SHRINKING WITH THE -- WITH THE EXCEPTION OF IMMIGRANTS WHO TEND TO BE EXTREMELY RELIGIOUS.

>> Lyz: SO THERE IS THIS INTERESTING CONVERSATION WE ARE HAVING IN AMERICA ABOUT THE IMPACT OF RELIGION.

AND I THINK TOO OFTEN THAT WE DISMISS ITS FORCE IN FLORIDA.

PEOPLE WERE SHOCKED TO SEE -- PENDANTS WERE SHOCKED WHEN THE LATINO VOTE, AND I KNOW LATINO IS LIKE A VERY BROAD TERM FOR A VOTE THAT IS NOT -- ITS MULTIFACETED AND WE SHOULD PROBABLY UNDERSTAND IT A LITTLE BETTER, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE REALLY MISSED WAS THE RELIGIOUS ASPECT, THE POWER OF FAITH IN OUR POLITICS.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THERE IS AN INCLINATION TO DISMISS IT, BUT REALLY, THE WAY WE SET UP OUR -- OF THE WAY WE SET UP OUR WHOLE SOCIETY IS BASED ON, YOU KNOW, THIS KIND OF RELIGIOUS PRACTICE AND RELIGIOUS BELIEF, AND IT HAS BECOME INTERTWINED WITH NATIONALISM, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED UNDER DWIGHT EISENHOWER, UNDER BILLY GRAHAM, AND SO, TRULY, TO BE A CHRISTIAN AND TO BE AN AMERICAN ARE THESE TWO KIND OF WEIRD AMORPHOUS CONCEPTS THAT HAVE BECOME DIVORCED FROM ACTUAL GOING TO CHURCH RELIGION AND HAVE TURNED INTO A CONCEPT OF NATIONALISM.

>> Bonnie: SO -- BUT TELL ME, JOE BIDEN, HIS MAIN THEME GOING THROUGH THE CAMPAIGN WAS I AM A UNITER.

I AM GOING TO BRING THE COUNTRY BACK TOGETHER, YET HE IS OPENLY PRO-CHOICE, SO IS HIS WIFE.

HE -- THERE ARE -- HE IS PRETTY LIBERAL ALONG POLICY LINES.

IS THERE ANY WAY THAT HE CAN SORT OF VAULT OVER THAT PART OF HIS POLITICS AND REALLY BRING MORE CHRISTIAN EVANGELICALS BACK INTO THE DEMOCRATIC FOLD?

AND YOU HAVE BEEN ON BOTH SIDES OF THE CHRISTIAN EVANGELICAL CULTURE.

>> Lyz: YES.

SO I THINK THERE'S A COUPLE THINGS HAPPENING HERE, IS, YOU KNOW, THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS ARE ACTUALLY PRO-CHOICE.

SO THERE IS THAT KIND OF LIKE POLICY ASPECT.

BUT OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, CATHOLICS IN AMERICA LOBBY HARD FOR PRO-LIFE POLICIES, AND I USE THAT TERM VERY IN QUOTES, AND SO DO EVANGELICALS, BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS ARE VERY MUCH JUST, YOU KNOW, WOMEN NEED TO MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICES ABOUT THEIR BODIES.

[CROSS TALK] >> Bonnie: IF YOU ASKED JUST THE GENERAL QUESTION, YES, BUT IF YOU START GETTING INTO -- >> Lyz: RIGHT.

>> Bonnie: -- PARTICULARS LIKE SHOULD THIRD TERM ABORTIONS BE ALLOWED, YOU KNOW, ALL KINDS OF LIMITATION.

WHEN SHOULD ABORTION CLINICS HAVE TO BE BUILT TO HOSPITAL STANDARDS, ALL THOSE KIND OF THINGS THAT ARE BACKDOOR WAYS TO GET -- TO MAKE ABORTION VIRTUALLY INACCESSIBLE, PEOPLE -- AMERICANS AND THE MAJORITY APPROVAL OF THOSE KIND OF RESTRICTIONS.

>> Lyz: WELL, I THINK THAT'S BECAUSE THERE IS A PROBLEM ABOUT MESSAGING AND THERE IS A PROBLEM ABOUT ACCESS.

THIS KIND OF GETS TO MY BOOK ABOUT THE LABORED.

HOW WE HAVE LOST THE WAR ON REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, IF YOU WANT TO CALL IT, IS BY LETTING OUR POLITICAL DIALOGUE HIT WOMAN AGAINST CHILD, SO WE HAVE THIS FALSE DICHOTOMY IN OUR AMERICAN NARRATIVE THAT IS WRAPPED UP IN RELIGION.

IT SAYS YOU HAVE TO PICK ONE OR THE OTHER, WHEN THAT IS JUST NOT TRUE AT ALL FOR SO LONG.

THEY ARE THE SAME THING AND SAME PERSON AND, YOU KNOW, STORY AFTER STORY OF WOMEN WHO HAVE, YOU KNOW, THIRD TERM ABORTIONS SHOWED THAT LIKE IT WAS A HARROWING EXPERIENCE.

PEOPLE'S LIVES WERE ON THE LINE.

IT WAS NOT AN EASY CHOICE AND IT WAS NOT SOMETHING ANYONE TOOK LIGHTLY, YET, YOU KNOW, THOSE NARRATIVES ARE NOT THE ONES THAT ARE BEING PROMOTED BY RELIGIOUS ADVOCATES.

SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT, CAN JOE BIDEN HIMSELF STRADDLED THIS LINE, CAN HE BE A UNITER, I THINK SO.

IS NOT REALLY THAT LIBERAL.

HE'S REALLY JUST A CENTRIST.

>> Bonnie: HE IS NOT BERNIE SANDERS.

>> Lyz: I THINK A FEW DECADES AGO HE PROBABLY WOULD'VE BEEN A REPUBLICAN, I GUESS LONGER THAN A FEW DECADES AGO, BUT HE IS VERY CENTRIST.

BUT, YES, BECAUSE HE IS PRO-CHOICE, HE'S THE RELIGIOUS FRINGE WHICH CONTROLS A LOT OF THIS RELIGIOUS NARRATIVE THAT WE HAVE AN DIALOGUE THAT WE HAVE, IS NEVER GOING TO SEE HIM AS FULLY, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, CHRISTIAN.

AND I THINK THERE IS A MOVEMENT IN AMERICA, THERE IS A LOT OF -- THE CENTER OF FAITH IS REALLY TRYING TO RE-CONTROL THIS NARRATIVE OF WHAT DOES IT MEAN, HOW FAITH WORKS IN AMERICAN POLITICS.

BECAUSE WE REALLY DON'T SEE IT WITH NUANCE.

ONCE AGAIN, WE DON'T UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, HOW IT MOTIVATES IMMIGRANTS WHO ARE RELIGIOUS, HOW IT MOTIVATES, YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT GREW OUT OF BLACK CHURCHES.

AND SO, TOO OFTEN WHEN WE TALK ABOUT RELIGION IN AMERICA, WHAT WE MEAN IS JUST LIKE WHITENESS, AND WE REALLY NEED TO START HAVING A MORE NUANCED CONVERSATION ABOUT FAITH IN AMERICA AND HOW IT WORKS.

>> Bonnie: WHEN YOU SAY NUANCED CONVERSATION, HOW WOULD THAT WORK?

BECAUSE -- >> Lyz: WELL -- >> Bonnie: -- POLITICAL MESSAGING HAS TO BE EXTREMELY BRIEF IF IT GETS AT ALL COMPLICATED.

IT GETS LOST ON VOTERS.

>> Lyz: NO, I DON'T THINK SO.

I THINK THAT IF YOU LOOK AT HOW, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, GEORGIA FAMOUSLY SLIPPED RIGHT.

WE ARE SEEING FIGHTS THERE.

THOSE FIGHTS ARE NOT HAPPENING BECAUSE THEY WERE HAPPENING OUTSIDE OF CHURCHES, RIGHT, THEY ARE HAPPENING, ONCE AGAIN WE HAVE TO GO HARKING BACK TO THE REALLY PROGRESSIVE, YOU KNOW, BLACK BAPTIST CHURCHES THAT LED THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, THAT ARE PART OF THIS ONE ASPECT OF FLIPPING GEORGIA, AND WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THAT.

AND THEN AGAIN, LIKE TO REFERENCE FLORIDA, WE HAVE TO GO BACK AND SAY, YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS MOTIVATING, YOU KNOW, IMMIGRANT VOTERS AND HOW ARE WE SEEING THEM AS A MONOLITH WHEN WE REALLY NEED TO START UNDERSTANDING OUR NATION BETTER.

I THINK WE CAN UNDERSTAND FAITH AS ONE ASPECT OF THOUGHT AND HOW IT PLAYS INTO IDENTITY.

BUT I ALSO THINK, YOU KNOW, THERE IS THIS RETICENCE ON BEHALF OF POLITICIANS, ESPECIALLY ON THE LEFT, TO TALK ABOUT THEIR FAITH.

JOE BIDEN IS FAMOUSLY GOOD AT THAT, BUT, YOU KNOW, I LIVE IN IOWA, I REPORTED ON THE CAUCUSES.

YOU KNOW, YOU DID NOT REALLY SEE THAT.

THERE IS ALSO A PROBLEM IN THE MEDIA OF HOW THAT GETS REPORTED TOO.

AS A PART OF THE MEDIA, I CAN SELF CRITICIZE HERE, BUT, YOU KNOW, WHEN A DONALD TRUMP HOLDS OF THE BIBLE, WE TALK ABOUT THAT.

WHEN ELIZABETH WARREN GETS UP ON STAGE AND GIVES -- TALKS ABOUT A PARABLE IN MATTHEW AND WHY SHE IS PRO LGBTQ RIGHTS, THAT DOES NOT GET COVERED QUITE AS MUCH, RIGHT?

SO THERE IS THIS REAL, REAL LACK OF, LIKE, UNDERSTANDING ONCE AGAIN OF HOW IT'S PRESENTED IN THE MEDIA AND HOW POLITICIANS PRESENT IT IN THEIR LIVES.

>> Bonnie: AND I WANT TO, BEFORE WE SWITCH OVER TO YOUR NEW BOOK, THE LABORED, I WENT TO ASK ABOUT AN OP-ED YOU WROTE NOT TOO LONG AGO IN THE NEW YORK TIMES ABOUT -- I THINK IT WAS THE NEW YORK TIMES OR THE WASHINGTON POST'S.

>> Lyz: WASHINGTON POST.

>> Bonnie: SORRY ABOUT THAT.

AND YOU SAID THAT DEMOCRATS SHOULD PRETTY MUCH DROP THE IDEA OF GOING AFTER WHITE WOMEN VOTERS BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT WON THAT CATEGORY OF VOTERS IN DECADES.

AND YOU DON'T SEEM TO THINK THEY ARE WELL.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> Lyz: I REALLY BELIEVE -- SO 2020 WAS A HUGE WIN FOR REPUBLICAN WOMEN DOWN BALLET.

I MEAN, STATISTICALLY, REPUBLICANS ARE NOT THE PARTY OF WOMEN, BUT WOMEN IN THAT PARTY ARE BECOMING MORE POWERFUL, ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE ELECTED, AND I THINK WE ARE GOING TO SEE THAT GOING FORWARD.

I THINK IT'S VERY POSSIBLE THAT OUR FIRST FEMALE PRESIDENT IS A WHITE REPUBLICAN WOMAN.

I MEAN, THAT'S NOT AN OUTCOME I WOULD REALLY ENJOY AND I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE IT SO THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN, BUT I THINK THERE IS THIS CULTURAL LACK OF UNDERSTANDING ABOUT HOW REGRESSIVE WHITE FEMALE POLITICS CAN BE.

AND, YOU KNOW, HOW PRO STATUS QUO THEY ARE.

AND I DON'T THINK WE DO OURSELVES ANY FAVORS BY TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE RESISTANCE IN THE WOMAN'S MARCH WITHOUT ALSO TURNING A CRITICAL EYE TO THE OTHER SIDE, BECAUSE THAT'S HOW THINGS LIKE 2016 HAPPENED, RIGHT, WHERE WE ARE LIKE, OH, NO, HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

WELL, YOU'RE MISSING A WHOLE SIDE OF THIS CONVERSATION.

I LIVE IN IOWA.

OUR GOVERNOR IS A REPUBLICAN WOMAN.

WE HAVE JONI ERNST AS A SENATOR.

THEY ARE BOTH VERY POPULAR.

AND I THINK WE NEED TO BE MORE CRITICAL IN OUR UNDERSTANDING OF POLITICS AND OUR UNDERSTANDING OF PEOPLE AND THAT, YOU KNOW, WE UNDERSTAND THAT WHITE WOMEN, ESPECIALLY WHITE WOMEN OF POWER, AND UPPER MIDDLE-CLASS WHITE WOMEN ARE NOT IDENTIFYING WITH THEIR GENDER WHEN THEY GO INTO THE VOTING BOOTH.

THEY ARE IDENTIFYING WITH POWER, WITH MONEY, AND RACE.

AND I DO THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, OUR PARTIES -- DEMOCRATS' PARTY'S EFFORTS ARE BETTER SUITED TO LOOKING AT WHO FORMS THE BASIS OF THIS PARTY, WHO IS REALLY THE MOST RELIABLE DEMOCRATIC VOTER AND WORKING TO UNDERSTAND THAT ASPECT BETTER, BECAUSE FOR TOO LONG, OR POLITICS HAVE BEEN CONTROLLED BY WHITENESS, AND I THINK WE NEED TO START ADDING SOME MORE COMPLEXITY TO THOSE ISSUES.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

SO HOW DO YOU, IF THE DEMOCRATS WERE TO , SAY, DROP WHITE WOMEN AS A TARGETED DEMOGRAPHIC, HOW WOULD THAT WORK?

AND LET ME ALSO SAY THAT IT IS CORRECT THAT WHITE WOMEN, IF YOU DO NOT DIVIDE THEM, WHITE MARRIED WOMEN HAVE VOTED REPUBLICAN FOR THE LAST, GOD KNOWS, BACK TO RAEGAN, ALMOST, PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS, 40 YEARS AGO.

BUT WHITE SINGLE WOMEN WHO ARE BY DEFINITION LESS WEALTHY AS A GROUP VOTE WITH WOMEN OF COLOR, AND IT REALLY SEEMS TO HAVE MORE TO DO TO ME AS SOMEONE WHO HAS FOLLOWED THIS ISSUE FOR 40 YEARS OR MORE, TO DO WITH ECONOMICS THAN IT DOES -- THAN ITS MORE FREQUENTLY POINTED OUT IN THE MEDIA.

>> Lyz: ONCE AGAIN, THE ISSUE IS NOT WHY WE SHOULD PANDER TO WHITE WOMEN.

THE ISSUE SHOULD BE WHO IS THE ACTUAL BASE OF THIS PARTY, AND WHO SHOULD WE BE SERVING?

YOU KNOW, WE SHOULD STOP TRYING TO APPEAL TO THIS DEMOGRAPHIC IF WE ARE NEVER GOING TO WIN THEM OVER, AND WE SHOULD LOOK AT WHO WE SHOULD BE APPEALING TO.

WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT HEALTHCARE, RIGHT, WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT CHILDCARE.

WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THE MINIMUM WAGE.

INSTEAD OF THIS KIND OF LIKE MIDDLE-OF-THE-ROAD CENTRISM, THE FAMOUS TEXAS COLUMNIST SAYS THAT THE ONLY THING THAT BELONGS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD ARE LINES AND ROADKILL, AND LOOK AT THE BASIS OF OUR PARTY, STOP TRYING TO WIN OVER LOST CAUSES, AND REALLY START GETTING FIRED UP ABOUT HOW WE CAN ENACT CHANGE AND, FRANKLY, ARE BROKEN COUNTRIES.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

WE WILL SWITCH NOW OVER TO YOUR NEWEST BOOK, WHICH IS CALLED THE LABORED, AND IT'S ABOUT ESSENTIALLY THE POLITICS OF PREGNANCY AND PARENTHOOD.

PLEASE TELL ME, WHAT IS THE MAIN MESSAGE IN YOUR BOOK?

>> WELL, THE BOOK IS PART MEMOIR, PART MANIFESTO.

IT SEEKS TO UNTANGLE THE MYTHS THAT WE USE AND THE MEDICINE THAT WE USE TO CONTROL WOMEN AROUND THE NINE MONTHS OF PREGNANCY AND BEYOND.

I THINK ONE OF THE CENTRAL MYTHS THAT I'M REALLY TRYING TO ATTACK IS THAT MYTH I MENTIONED EARLIER WHERE IN OUR CULTURE, WE PIT MOTHER AGAINST BABY WHERE WE SAY YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE ONE OR THE OTHER OR OUR LAWS DO THIS THING WHERE WE DIVEST WOMEN OF CHOICE AS IF, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE CHOICES THAT ARE BAD FOR THE FETUS INSIDE THEM.

AND SO, THAT'S WHAT THIS BOOK IS ABOUTNCE AGAIN, IT'S A MEMOIR, IT'S A JOURNALISM.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE FUN STORIES IN THERE, BUT IT'S REALLY ALL TO GO TO KIND OF UNTANGLE THE MYTHS OF WOMEN AND THEIR BODIES AND HOW WE CONTROL THEM DURING THE NINE MONTHS OF PREGNANCY AND BEYOND.

>> Bonnie: I AGREE WITH YOU THAT ABORTION POLITICS FROM THE BEGINNING HAS BEEN ABOUT SEPARATING, YOU KNOW, HITTING THE MOTHER AGAINST THE FETUS.

BUT THERE ARE -- I HAVE BEEN KIND OF SHUT DOWN IN THE BELIEF BY A LOT OF POLLSTERS IN SUCH, CELINDA LAKE INCLUDED, THAT THAT'S REALLY NOT WHAT ACTIVISTS ON EITHER SIDE WOULD SAY THEY ARE TRYING TO DO.

HOW WOULD YOU GET THEM TO ACCEPT THAT THIS REALLY IS PART OF ABORTION RIGHTS POLITICS?

>> Lyz: WELL, I GUESS, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE NOT ALWAYS CONSCIOUS OF THE NARRATIVES THAT THEY ARE CONSUMING, AND, YOU KNOW, SPEWING BACK OUT AGAIN.

I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY WHERE A POLLSTER'S LIMITS HAPPEN, THEY CAN ONLY PULL WHAT PEOPLE ARE CONSCIOUS OF AND THAT'S A LOT OF THE MOTIVATIONS THAT WE ARE NOT FULLY CONSCIOUS OF.

BUT ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS LOOK AT HOW RELIGIOUS CONSERVATIVES, YOU KNOW, PROMOTE THAT PRO-LIFE STANCE, AND IT IS THROUGH ULTRASOUNDS THAT FORCE WOMEN TO LOOK AT THE BABY INSIDE THEM AND SAY, SEE, IT HAS FINGERS, ERGO WITH THE BABY, OR LISTEN TO THE HEARTBEAT.

THAT HEARTBEAT MEANS, YOU KNOW, IT'S A FULLY FUNCTIONING CHILD INSIDE OF YOU, WHEREAS WE KNOW THAT'S NOT TRUE.

WE KNOW THAT, YOU KNOW, THE CHILD'S HEART AT THAT POINT IS NOT FULLY FUNCTIONING, THAT A LOT OF THE BLOOD FLOW THROUGH THEM IN THE HEARTBEAT IS DEPENDENT UPON THE MOTHER.

AND SO, IN THE LAW AND JUST SCIENCE IS NOT PRESENT IN THOSE DISCUSSIONS, WHICH IS HOW WE GET, YOU KNOW, LAWS THAT SAY WOMEN SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO, YOU KNOW, ABORT FETUSES THEY CANNOT EVEN CARRY TO TERM.

YOU'RE LIKE, WELL, DOCTORS ARE TESTIFYING SAYING THAT WILL KILL WOMEN AND, YOU KNOW, LAWMAKERS ARE JUST LIKE, NOPE, SORRY, WE WENT TO CARE FOR THE CHILDREN.

SO, YOU KNOW, BABY PEOPLE ARE NOT DOING THAT.

BUT ALL YOU HAVE TO DO -- OR DON'T THINK THEY ARE DOING THAT, BUT ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS LOOK AT THE GENDER REVEAL PARTY AND SEE THAT WE'VE ALREADY KIND OF ACCEPTED A MASS OF CELLS AS SOME CULTURALLY FORMED ENTITY THAT HAS TO BE DIVIDED INTO PINK OR BLUE, WHEN THAT JUST REALLY MISSES THE ACTUAL SCIENCE OF THE SITUATION AND THE ACTUAL COMPLEXITIES OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A HUMAN IN THE WORLD.

>> Bonnie: SO TELL ME, LAST QUESTION, WHAT ARE YOUR HOPES FOR THE POLITICS OF PREGNANCY AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION?

WHAT POLICIES DO YOU HOPE WILL BE ENACTED, IF ANY, ON A FEDERAL LEVEL OR ON LOCAL LEVELS THAT GIVE WOMEN MORE CHOICE?

>> Lyz: YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW, THIS PANDEMIC IS FORCING AMERICANS TO REALLY GRAPPLE WITH HOW HORRIBLY WE TREAT WOMEN IN AMERICA, AND NOT JUST WOMEN, MOTHERS SPECIFICALLY.

WOMEN REPRESENTING -- REPORT, THAT SHOULD ONE IN FIVE WOMEN HAVE BEEN FORCED OUT OF THE WORKFORCE BECAUSE SCHOOLS ARE CLOSED, CHILDCARE CENTERS ARE CLOSED, THEY DON'T EARN ENOUGH MONEY, THERE IS STILL A HUGE WAGE GAP AND THIS IS -- IT GETS WORSE AND WORSE AND WORSE IF YOU'RE A PERSON OF COLOR OR IF YOU'RE A OR, AND SO WHAT WE REALLY HAVE IS THE OPPORTUNITY TO STOP TALKING ABOUT THESE ISSUES.

WE STOP TALKING ABOUT PREGNANCY, ABOUT CHILDREN AS, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, WOMEN'S ISSUES AND LOOK AT THEM HOW THEY NEED TO BE ASSESSED , AS AN ECONOMIC ISSUE.

WE BUILD ROADS SO PEOPLE CAN DRIVE TO WORK.

WHY DON'T WE HAVE FREE CHILDCARE SO PEOPLE CAN ACTUALLY GO TO WORK?

WOMEN ARE A HUGE PART OF OUR GDP.

AND SO, WHAT I HOPE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION DOES, I HOPE THERE IS PAID PARENTAL LEAVE.

YOU KNOW, NO BAILOUTS FOR BUSINESSES THAT DO NOT GIVE EMPLOYEES PAID PARENTAL LEAVE.

MOTHERS AND FATHERS.

WE NEED PRESCHOOL AND WE NEED AFFORDABLE CHILDCARE, AND THAT I THINK IS A GOOD STARTING POINT.

I HAVE HOPE, BECAUSE I KNOW VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT HARRIS HAS, YOU KNOW, PUBLICLY TALKED ABOUT THIS!

I KNOW CHILDCARE IS A HUGE PART OF THE BUILD BACK BETTER CAMPAIGN, AND I KNOW THAT THERE'S PEOPLE IN CONGRESS WHO WILL KEEP PUSHING THIS ISSUE LIKE REPRESENTATIVE KATIE PORTER.

I WILL KEEP YELLING ABOUT IT.

>> Bonnie: BUT DO YOU THINK PAID PARENTAL LEAVE AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL HAS BEEN AN OBJECTIVE FOR ACTIVISTS FOR A LONG TIME NOW, DO YOU EXPECT TO SEE IT IMPROVE IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION?

>> Lyz: LOOK, LOOK, MY EXPECTATIONS HAVE LITTLE TO DO WITH WHAT I'M GOING TO FIGHT FOR.

I MEAN, I HOPE IT HAPPENS AND I JUST HAVE TO LIVE WITH HOPE AND BE DISAPPOINTED IF I GET DISAPPOINTED, BUT THAT SHOULD NOT STOP ME -- STOP ANY OF US FROM FIGHTING REALLY HARD FOR THIS ISSUE, AND NOT BECAUSE IT'S A WOMEN'S ISSUE, BUT BECAUSE IT'S AN AMERICAN ECONOMY ISSUE.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO BAIL OUT AIRLINES, WE WILL FILL OUT THE VERY MEANS OF REPRODUCTION THAT HAVE BEEN MADE IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> Bonnie: THANK YOU SO MUCH, LYZ LENTZ.

GREAT INTERVIEW.

AND WE WILL LOOK FORWARD TO THE FALLOUT FROM YOUR NEXT BOOK AND SEE IF IT HAS AN IMPACT ON THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION MATERNITY POLICIES!

THANK YOU SO MUCH AND THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

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