>>> NOW FROM MASS I.C.E.

RATES TO ENFORCING ANTI-DDI POLICIES FEARS THAT THE MELTING POT ONCE CHAMPIONS I FEARS OF UNRAVELING.

THE DEAN OF THE COLUMBIA SCHOOL OF JOURNALISM JELANI COBB TOLD HIS STUDENTS THAT NOBODY CAN PROTECT YOU.

THROUGH A COLLECTION OF HIS ARTICLES WRITTEN OVER THE LAST DECADE HE REFLECTS WITH MICHELLE MARTIN ON HOW THE UNITED STATES GOT TO THIS PLACE.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> I AM HAPPY TO BE HERE.

>> YOUR NEW BOOK IS A COLLECTION OF YOUR ESSAYS FROM 2012 TO 2025.

IT IS TITLED THREE OR MORE IS A RIOT.

WHERE DOES THE TITLE COME FROM.

>> I HAVE DONE A LOT OF COVERAGE IN AND AROUND SOUTH CAROLINA.

PARTICULARLY A DIFFICULT STORY THAT I COVERED WHICH WAS THE DEATH OF NINE AFRICAN-AMERICANS AT THE EMMANUEL CHURCH IN 2015 THE RESULTS OF A MASS SHOOTING THAT HAD BEEN ORCHESTRATED BY A WHITE SUPREMACIST.

IT REMINDED ME THERE HAD BEEN YEARS BEFORE THE CIVIL CODE OF SOUTH CAROLINA, COLONIAL SOUTH CAROLINA HAD HELD THAT A SLAVE REVOLT WAS DEFINED AS THREE OR MORE NEGROS AS THEY WERE CALLED THEN OUTSIDE OF THE COMPANY OF THE WHITE MEN.

THEN THE RIOT WAS PUBLIC MAYHEM COMMITTED BY THREE OR MORE PEOPLE.

I THOUGHT THERE WAS THIS LINE ABOUT NUMBERS, TOMOGRAPHY, SOCIAL TENSIONS, ORDER, AND ALL OF THOSE THEMES THAT KEPT COMING UP IN THE THINGS I WROTE ABOUT.

THE TITLE JUMPED OUT AT ME THREE OR MORE IS A RIOT.

>> YOU START BY TALKING ABOUT THE SHOOTING DEATH OF TRAYVON MARTIN.

FOR MANY PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT REMEMBER HE WAS A FLORIDA TEENAGER SHOT BY HISPANIC MAN GEORGE ZIMMERMAN WHO WAS A SELF- APPOINTED NEIGHBORHOOD WATCHMAN.

HE WAS VISITING HIS DAD AND WENT TO GET HIS LITTLE BROTHER A SNACK.

ZIMMERMAN DECIDED HE WAS SUSPICIOUS AND WAS GOING TO FOLLOW HIM.

HE DOES NOT LIKE BEING FOLLOWED AND FEELS THREATENED.

HE CONFRONTS ZIMMERMAN.

ZIMMERMAN SHOOTS HIM.

IS NOT ARRESTED FOR WEEKS.

HE IS EVENTUALLY ARRESTED AND ACQUITTED.

THE IRONY THAT IT TAKES PLACE DURING THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.

THE BOOK KIND OF FOLLOWS THESE DIFFERENT SECTIONS.

IT'S GOT PARAMETERS OF HOPE, WINTER IN AMERICA AND HISTORY LESSONS.

I WAS CURIOUS WHY YOU DECIDED TO OPEN THE BOOK AS OPPOSED TO THE ELECTION OF BARACK OBAMA IN 2008.

>> THERE WERE A COUPLE REASONS WHY THE BOOK OPENS WHERE DOES.

I STARTED WRITING FOR THE NEW YORKER IN 2012.

THE FIRST THING I EVER WROTE ABOUT, AT THE TIME IT WAS A NEWS BLIP.

IT WAS NOT A STORY THAT HAD THE DIMENSIONS.

IT WAS THE BEGINNING OF MY RELATIONSHIP WITH THE NEW YORKER.

ALSO IT OCCURRED TO ME WHEN WE WERE PUTTING THE COLLECTION TOGETHER WHEN WE LOOKED AT 2012 TO 2016, THE SECOND TERM OF BARACK OBAMA AND 2016 TO 2020 AND THEN 2020 TO 2024, IT'S JUST A LITTLE BIT THAT CREEPS OVER INTO 2025 IT COULD BE LIKE A THREE ACT PLAY WITH THE THREE PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATIONS.

YOU CAN SEE AN ARC OF THE STORY EVOLVING AND HOW WE CAME TO FIND OURSELVES IN INCREASINGLY VOLATILE SOCIAL AND POLITICAL CIRCUMSTANCES.

IT ALSO WAS INTERESTING TO CONTEMPLATE THE QUESTION OF POLICE VIOLENCE WAS SUCH AN URGENT MATTER.

IT WAS URGENT TO A LOT OF PEOPLE.

THOSE BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS WERE WORLDWIDE.

IT WAS REMARKABLE TO SEE PEOPLE IN PLACES THAT DID NOT EVEN HAVE LARGE BLACK POPULATIONS OR EXPATRIATE POPULATIONS ENGAGING IN THIS DISCOURSE.

WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THAT NOW?

>> GOING BACK TO THE POINT ABOUT OBAMA FOR A QUICK SECOND, THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THIS TENSION BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO WERE CRITICAL OF WHAT HE DID AND OTHER PEOPLE WHO WERE THINKING ABOUT CONTEXT LIKE WHAT WAS CAPABLE OF BEING DONE IN THAT MOMENT.

THAT IS THE KIND OF TENSION MAKING ANY KIND OF ASSESSMENT OF ANYONE.

THAT MOMENT THE FORCES THAT WERE AMASSING EVEN WHILE HE WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE THAT WERE PUSHING THE COUNTRY IN A MORE VOLATILE DIRECTION AND MORE REACTIONARY DIRECTION AND PEOPLE WHO FELT AS IF HE REPRESENTED SOMETHING THAT HAD BEEN TAKEN FROM THEM.

THAT IS BEST ARTICULATED AND UNDERSTOOD IN THE 2016 ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP.

THEN WE GO THROUGH ALL OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPEN IN 2016 AND WE GET TO COVID.

SOME OF THE MORE REACTIONARY RESPONSES WE GET TO THAT.

THEN THERE IS GEORGE FLOYD AND THERE'S THIS HIGH WATER MARK OF SOCIAL REFORM AND RECOGNITION OF CIVIL RIGHTS FOR ALL THESE CASES THAT PRECEDED.

THE PUBLIC HAD NOT SEEN SOMEONE LOSE THEIR LIFE OVER THE COURSE OF NINE MINUTES OF VIDEO WHERE THE POLICE OFFICER REFUSING TO STOP KNEELING ON HIS NECK.

I THINK THAT SHOCKED THE CONSCIENCE.

IN THE LONG VIEW 2020 LOOKS LIKE A BRIEF INTERLUDE A SPEEDBUMP ON THE WAY TOWARD A MUCH MORE REACTIONARY VERSION OF THE UNITED STATES.

WE NOW LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE WHAT HAPPENED TO GEORGE FLOYD IS MORE LIKE NOT LESS LIKELY PICK AS A RESULT OF THESE TITANIC FORCES THAT WE HAVE SEEN AMASSING LONG BEFORE ANY OF US KNEW WHO GEORGE FLOYD WAS.

>> ONE THING YOU WRITE ABOUT IS THE WAY PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN GOOD AT TURNING RACIAL GRIEVANCES CULTURAL GRIEVANCES INTO POLITICAL CAPITOL.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS THAT HE'S BEEN SO SUCCESSFUL AT IT?

>> SOME OF THIS IS A PARTICULAR POLITICAL SKILL OR DARE I SAY TALENT AT FINDING THE BUTTONS THAT TRIGGER RAGE IN PEOPLE AND HE HAS A BACKGROUND IN TELEVISION WHICH SHOWS.

REALITY TV.

SOMEWAYS THE POLITIC WE'VE SEEN HIM DEPLOY HAS BEEN FUNDAMENTAL REALITY TELEVISION.

THAT HAS BEEN COMPELLING THE PEOPLE.

THIS IS A VERY OLD PLAYBOOK.

POPULIST MOVEMENTS.

IF YOU GO BACK TO PAT BUCHANAN IN THE 90s OR IF YOU GO BACK TO TOM WATSON IN THE 1890S TO THE EARLY 20th CENTURY AND IF HE TOOK ALL THEIR SPEECHES AND THROUGH THE PAGES INTO THE AIR AND LET THEM FALL YOU WOULD HAVE A HARD TIME FIGURING OUT WHO SAID WHAT BECAUSE THERE IS A BIG OVERLAP IN THE WAYS THEY LEVERAGED PEOPLE'S FEELINGS OF RESENTMENT AND GALVANIZE THAT INTO POLITICAL FORCE.

>> PAT BUCHANAN DID NOT MAKE IT TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

GEORGE WALLACE DID NOT MAKE IT TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND CERTAINLY NOT FOR TWO TERMS IT IS A PRETTY REMARKABLE ACHIEVEMENT.

>> I AM NOT DOUBTING THAT AT ALL .

THAT IS THE THING I'M SAYING.

THOSE KINDS OF MOVEMENTS THAT EXISTED FOR A LONG TIME, THE DYNAMIC OF SOMEONE THAT IS ABLE TO GALVANIZE THAT.

ALSO I SHOULD SAY NONE OF THOSE WERE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT IN THE AFTERMATH OF A BLACK MAN BEING ELECTED AS PRESIDENT.

THAT IS ANOTHER POINT THAT BEARS MENTION.

>> THE BOOK IS FOCUSED ON THE BLACK-WHITE RACIAL DYNAMIC BECAUSE OF THE TIMES YOU WERE WRITING ABOUT.

AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN PRESIDENT IN HIS SECOND TERM.

WHITE POPULIST BEER ARISING IN PART AS YOU NOTED OUT OF RESENTMENT AROUND THAT FACT.

IN THE CURRENT MOMENT MANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO BE THE FOCUS OF THIS PRESIDENT'S RESENTMENT ARE PEOPLE OF OTHER ETHNIC BACKGROUNDS.

MANY PEOPLE FROM SOUTH AMERICA, CENTRAL AMERICA.

MANY OTHER PEOPLE THAT ARE TARGETS OF THIS IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN WHICH HAS TAKEN ON A FURIOUS DIMENSION.

I'M JUST WONDERING HOW YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT THAT.

>> THERE IS A PIECE THAT I WROTE IN THE NEW YORKER.

IT WAS TOO RECENT TO GET INTO THE COLLECTION.

A COUPLE OTHER PIECES I TOPIC AND -- ABOUT THIS DYNAMIC OF INTEGRATION AND ANTI- IMMIGRATION, XENA PHOBIA IN AMERICAN SOCIETY AND THE GROUNDSWELL WE ARE EXPERIENCING RIGHT NOW, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I WOULD POINT OUT THAT HISTORICALLY WE HAVE SEEN, WE HAVE TENDED TO SEE XENA >> Reporter: -- XENA PHOBIC POLITICS RISE AT THE SAME TIME WE'VE SEEN ANTI-BLACK POLITICS.

THEY SEEM TO HAVE A CONNECTION THAT GOES TO A FUNDAMENTAL CONCERN ABOUT TOMOGRAPHY AND TRYING TO CURE WITHIN THE UNITED STATES AND WHO IS IN THE ELECTORATE.

THERE'S ISSUES OF VOTER ACCESS AND VOTER SUPPRESSION THAT ALSO GO HAND IN HAND WITH THE ANTI- IMMIGRATION RHETORIC, NATIVISM AND ENCINO PHOBIA WITH A COMMON SENSE OF PERSECUTION OR MAYBE ANXIETY ABOUT WHERE PEOPLE FIT IN THE BIGGER TOMOGRAPHY OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> IN SOME OF YOUR ESSAYS YOU REVISIT THEM LIKE AN EPILOGUE OR POSTSCRIPT WHERE YOU REFLECT ON WHAT YOU WROTE THEN AND WHAT YOU MIGHT THINK NOW.

ANY ONE IN PARTICULAR WHERE YOU FELT YOU GOT IT WRONG?

>> I FEEL LIKE I GOT EVERYTHING RIGHT.

[LAUGHTER] >> LUCKY.

>> I THINK SOME OF MY ASSESSMENTS, EARLY ASSESSMENTS ABOUT THE MAGA PHENOMENON UNDERESTIMATED THE BROAD ARRAY OF ISSUES THAT WERE REALLY BUOYING THAT MOVEMENT.

I CERTAINLY UNDERESTIMATED THE SPEED AT WHICH IT WAS GOING TO COME INTO FRUITION.

ONCE I STARTED TO SEE IT I COULD NOT UN-SEE IT.

I WAS THINKING ABOUT IT IN RELATIONSHIP TO OLDER POPULIST MOVEMENTS IN THE UNITED STATES AND THEN IT BECOMES MUCH MORE LEGIBLE AND UNDERSTANDABLE.

I THINK EARLY ON I DID NOT UNDERSTAND THAT.

THE WRITING I DID PROBABLY REFLECTED THAT.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE FACT THAT THIS MAGA MOVEMENT , THE MOVEMENT THE PRESIDENT HAS CALLED MAGA , IT'S A MULTIRACIAL MOVEMENT.

IS FBI DIRECTOR HAS BEEN A PRIME AGENT OF HIS CAMPAIGN AGAINST HIS PERCEIVED ENEMIES IS INDIAN AMERICAN WHO TOOK HIS OATH OF OFFICE ON A HINDU SACRED TEXT.

WHAT YOU THINK THE HEAD OF THIS MILITIA GROUP HAS HISPANIC HERITAGE.

THE FACT THAT HE GOT LARGER PERCENTAGES OF HISPANIC AND BLACK VOTES IN HIS SECOND ELECTION THAN HIS FIRST.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> A FEW THINGS ARE AT PLAY.

ONE, IF WE LOOK AT ALL SORTS OF MOVEMENTS THAT PRECEDED THIS.

IF WE LOOK AT THE ANTI- COMMUNIST MOVEMENTS OF THE 1950s AND SO ON, PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS AND VANTAGE POINTS FIND SOMETHING THEY CONNECT TO TO IN THOSE MOVEMENTS.

THE OTHER THING I WILL SAY THAT IS HAPPENING HERE IS THE POLITICS OF MOTHERING HAS BEEN PLAYING OFF OF VARIOUS COUNTERPOINTS, IF I CAN SAY THAT.

THE PERSON WHO, THE LARGE NUMBERS OF BLACK MEN OR THE LARGER NUMBERS OF BLACK MEN WHO VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP IN 2024 WERE VERY OFTEN RESPONDING TO THE KIND OF MASCULINE, SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT WERE SEXIST, POLITICS THAT TRUMP REPRESENTED.

SO THEY WERE NOT VOTING NECESSARILY ON THE BASIS OF RACE.

THEY WERE FLOATING ABOUT ANXIETIES AND RESENTMENTS THEY EXPERIENCE ALONG THE LINES OF GENDER.

THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE WOMEN WHO COULD HAVE BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT THE QUESTIONS ABOUT POLICIES HE WOULD'VE ADVOCATED THAT ARE NOT BENEFICIAL TO WOMEN BUT ALSO WERE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT IMMIGRATION.

AND IT WAS A KIND OF MASTERFUL EXAMPLE OF LAYING PEOPLE OFF OF EACH OTHER ON THE BASIS OF THEIR RESENTMENTS, ANXIETIES, AND FEARS.

THAT IS ONE THING.

THE OTHER THING IS SOME OF THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE INCREASED APPEAL OF DONALD TRUMP.

IT'S ABOUT THE DECREASED APPEAL OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WHICH HAS TWO HUGE ISSUES THE EXTENT TO WHICH WE HAVE NOT REALLY SORTED WITH HOW THEY FACTORED INTO THE PREVIOUS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

THE FIRST IS LOTS OF YOUNG VOTERS THAT WERE TURNED OFF BY GAZA DID NOT COME OUT.

TRUMPS PROPORTION OF THESE WATERS IS INCREASED BECAUSE THE TURNOUT ON THE OTHER SIDE IS LOWER.

ON THE OTHER SIDE IS WHEN JOE BIDEN DROPPED OUT OF THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE THERE WERE SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS OF DEMOCRATS WHO FELT THAT HE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO JUST HAND THE NOMINATION TO KAMALA HARRIS AS IF HE WERE PASSING THE TORCH.

THOSE RESENTMENTS AND ANXIETIES, HER CAMPAIGN SUFFERED THE BRUNT OF THAT.

NOT TO MENTION THAT THIS WAS A CAMPAIGN FOR SOMEBODY THAT HAD 107 DAYS TO MAKE A CASE TO THE ENTIRE 340 MILLION PLUS POPULATION OF THE UNITED STATES ABOUT WHY THEY SHOULD BE THE NEXT LEADER.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT LIKE THAT IT'S PROBABLY SOME COMBINATION OF ALL THOSE THINGS AND NOT SIMPLY ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE DECIDED THAT DONALD TRUMP IS MORE APPEALING IN 2024 THEN HE HAD BEEN IN 2020 OR 2016.

>> BEFORE WE GO LET'S GO BACK TO -- YOU HAVE SEVERAL HATS.

DID THE EXPERIENCE OF GOING BACK AND LOOKING AT YOUR WRITING 2012 ON, HAS THAT CHANGED ANYTHING ABOUT THE WAY YOU LOOK AT THE CURRENT MOMENT?

>> IT HAS ACTUALLY.

ONE, GOING BACK AND READING THE PIECES.

I WRITE THESE ASSESSMENTS THAT LOOK AT WHAT I GOT RIGHT OR WHAT I GOT WRONG, BUT THE OTHER PART OF IT WAS THAT IT MADE THE PATTERNS THAT WE KIND OF SEE THAT WERE NOT AS VISIBLE AT THE TIME MUCH MORE LEGIBLE AND VISIBLE TO ME ON THE OTHER SIDE OF IT IN RETROSPECT.

THAT WAS ALSO SOMETHING I THINK I TOOK FROM GOING TO THAT.

LIKE THIS WAS CONNECTED TO THIS AND THIS TO THAT AND SO ON.

>> JELANI COBB, THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US.

>>> THANK YOU.